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	<title>Comments on: An Experiment in Conversation</title>
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	<description>It's about lessons learned... from life!</description>
	<pubDate>Wed, 07 Jan 2009 02:37:04 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Robert Hruzek</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7862</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Hruzek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 12:13:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7862</guid>
		<description>Jean, thanks for the information. Yes, I remember the big discussions about derivatives and their dangers to the marketplace. Then... nothing. Apparently it all got swept under the rug. Typical. *sigh*

That's a good image - alligators in a swamp. Might be a good one for all of us to keep in mind when daring to invest.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jean, thanks for the information. Yes, I remember the big discussions about derivatives and their dangers to the marketplace. Then&#8230; nothing. Apparently it all got swept under the rug. Typical. *sigh*</p>
<p>That&#8217;s a good image - alligators in a swamp. Might be a good one for all of us to keep in mind when daring to invest.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean Browman--Cheerful Monk</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7857</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean Browman--Cheerful Monk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 06:01:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7857</guid>
		<description>"Most chillingly, derivatives hold the possibility of systemic risk - the danger that these contracts might directly or indirectly cause some localized or particularized trouble in the financial markets to spread uncontrollably. An imaginable scenario is some deep crisis at a major dealer that would cause it to default on its contracts and be the instigator of a chain reaction bringing down other institutions and sending paroxysms of fear through a financial market that lives on the expectation of prompt payments. Inevitably, that would put deposit-insurance funds, and the taxpayers behind them, at risk."

Sounds like a good description of what's going on, doesn't it?  The excerpt is from The Risk That Won't Go Away, a March 7, 1994 article in Fortune.  It's on the web at http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/25/magazines/fortune/loomis_swamp.fortune/index.htm

Its not as if we hadn't been warned.  Not that we had any say in the matter.  I remember reading (skimming, actually!) this article then...and shuddering.  

"Like alligators in a swamp, derivatives lurk in the global economy. Even the CEOs of companies that use them don't understand them."
---Carol J. Loomis 

Have a stout heart....</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Most chillingly, derivatives hold the possibility of systemic risk - the danger that these contracts might directly or indirectly cause some localized or particularized trouble in the financial markets to spread uncontrollably. An imaginable scenario is some deep crisis at a major dealer that would cause it to default on its contracts and be the instigator of a chain reaction bringing down other institutions and sending paroxysms of fear through a financial market that lives on the expectation of prompt payments. Inevitably, that would put deposit-insurance funds, and the taxpayers behind them, at risk.&#8221;</p>
<p>Sounds like a good description of what&#8217;s going on, doesn&#8217;t it?  The excerpt is from The Risk That Won&#8217;t Go Away, a March 7, 1994 article in Fortune.  It&#8217;s on the web at <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/25/magazines/fortune/loomis_swamp.fortune/index.htm">http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/25/magazines/fortune/loomis_swamp.fortune/index.htm</a></p>
<p>Its not as if we hadn&#8217;t been warned.  Not that we had any say in the matter.  I remember reading (skimming, actually!) this article then&#8230;and shuddering.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Like alligators in a swamp, derivatives lurk in the global economy. Even the CEOs of companies that use them don&#8217;t understand them.&#8221;<br />
&#8212;Carol J. Loomis </p>
<p>Have a stout heart&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jean Browman--Cheerful Monk</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7856</link>
		<dc:creator>Jean Browman--Cheerful Monk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 09 Oct 2008 01:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7856</guid>
		<description>This will be short because it looks as if your site lost two comments earlier today.  For information about one of the big culprits, credit default swaps, see http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/30/magazines/fortune/varchaver_derivatives_short.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008093012

Jean Browman--Cheerful Monks last blog post..&lt;a href="http://cheerfulmonk.com/2008/10/06/what-i-learned-from-being-tortured-by-a-dentist/" rel="nofollow"&gt;What I Learned From Being Tortured By a Dentist&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This will be short because it looks as if your site lost two comments earlier today.  For information about one of the big culprits, credit default swaps, see <a href="http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/30/magazines/fortune/varchaver_derivatives_short.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008093012">http://money.cnn.com/2008/09/30/magazines/fortune/varchaver_derivatives_short.fortune/index.htm?postversion=2008093012</a></p>
<p>Jean Browman&#8211;Cheerful Monks last blog post..<a href="http://cheerfulmonk.com/2008/10/06/what-i-learned-from-being-tortured-by-a-dentist/">What I Learned From Being Tortured By a Dentist</a></p>
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		<title>By: Hump Day Reading for the Restless Soul &#8212; Write From Home</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7839</link>
		<dc:creator>Hump Day Reading for the Restless Soul &#8212; Write From Home</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Oct 2008 10:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7839</guid>
		<description>[...] An Experiment in Conversation at Middle Zone Musings [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] An Experiment in Conversation at Middle Zone Musings [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Sunday Snippets 2008-10-05 - Luke Gedeon</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7803</link>
		<dc:creator>Sunday Snippets 2008-10-05 - Luke Gedeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Oct 2008 03:55:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7803</guid>
		<description>[...] say hmm&#8230; and change the topic. Go ahead and see what the others had to say and reply on the Middle Zone before you read my comments. If you read my comments first you will fall asleep before you get [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] say hmm&#8230; and change the topic. Go ahead and see what the others had to say and reply on the Middle Zone before you read my comments. If you read my comments first you will fall asleep before you get [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Robert Hruzek</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7795</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Hruzek</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:13:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7795</guid>
		<description>Many thanks, y'all, for carryin' the conversation on this topic while I've been totally swamped with, er, other stuff this week.  I must say, you guys are pretty smart! One thing that seems to  be evident; NOBODY'S happy about the financial mess we're in! (Well, duh!)

But there's a couple of things I will say about, though:

1. It ain't as bad as the what you hear in the Main Stream Media. I'll tell ya; if you listen to these guys, it's like the end of the world as we know it. You have to remember these guys need to sell newpapers and advertising, so the more sensational the headlines, the better it is for them. If you're going to investigate the issue, please bear that in mind.

2. The ultimate root cause is greed, yes. But it's not just some "faceless fat cats"; believe me, there 's plenty of it to go around. Sadly, it is finally starting to come out that warnings about this were made as far back as the Clinton administration, but ignored. Not that I'm blaming Dems or Repubs; as I said, there's plenty of blame to go around.

3. Part of the problem is the misplaced understanding of "rights". Since when did it become a "right" to &lt;i&gt;own&lt;/i&gt; a house? Sure, we can if we can afford it, but I don't recall that being one of those "inalienable rights" they mentioned in our Constitution.

There's probably an endless stream of discussion here, but in the meantime, I thank y'all from the bottom of my heart for joining me in the sandbox this week; a big tip o' the hat to ya! And if you have more to add, by all means keep 'em comin'!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Many thanks, y&#8217;all, for carryin&#8217; the conversation on this topic while I&#8217;ve been totally swamped with, er, other stuff this week.  I must say, you guys are pretty smart! One thing that seems to  be evident; NOBODY&#8217;S happy about the financial mess we&#8217;re in! (Well, duh!)</p>
<p>But there&#8217;s a couple of things I will say about, though:</p>
<p>1. It ain&#8217;t as bad as the what you hear in the Main Stream Media. I&#8217;ll tell ya; if you listen to these guys, it&#8217;s like the end of the world as we know it. You have to remember these guys need to sell newpapers and advertising, so the more sensational the headlines, the better it is for them. If you&#8217;re going to investigate the issue, please bear that in mind.</p>
<p>2. The ultimate root cause is greed, yes. But it&#8217;s not just some &#8220;faceless fat cats&#8221;; believe me, there &#8217;s plenty of it to go around. Sadly, it is finally starting to come out that warnings about this were made as far back as the Clinton administration, but ignored. Not that I&#8217;m blaming Dems or Repubs; as I said, there&#8217;s plenty of blame to go around.</p>
<p>3. Part of the problem is the misplaced understanding of &#8220;rights&#8221;. Since when did it become a &#8220;right&#8221; to <i>own</i> a house? Sure, we can if we can afford it, but I don&#8217;t recall that being one of those &#8220;inalienable rights&#8221; they mentioned in our Constitution.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s probably an endless stream of discussion here, but in the meantime, I thank y&#8217;all from the bottom of my heart for joining me in the sandbox this week; a big tip o&#8217; the hat to ya! And if you have more to add, by all means keep &#8216;em comin&#8217;!</p>
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		<title>By: Ulla Hennig</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7792</link>
		<dc:creator>Ulla Hennig</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 09:54:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7792</guid>
		<description>Actually somehow my comment and Joanna Young's comment were left out in the article - I finally decided to say something, too.
I might repeat it here: The German newspapers are full of articles about the global financial crisis. As far as I understand them (I must admit that my understanding of economic things is a bit limited), the reasons for the crash is greed. Investment bankers have been trying to get as many dollars out as possible without a proper foundation for it. Regarding the bailout my humble opinion is, that if there is a bailout, there should be conditions which prevent the same thing happening again. Otherwise it is just money thrown away.
My two cents
Ulla

Ulla Hennigs last blog post..&lt;a href="http://ullahennig.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/the-colours-of-autumn/" rel="nofollow"&gt;The Colours of Autumn&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually somehow my comment and Joanna Young&#8217;s comment were left out in the article - I finally decided to say something, too.<br />
I might repeat it here: The German newspapers are full of articles about the global financial crisis. As far as I understand them (I must admit that my understanding of economic things is a bit limited), the reasons for the crash is greed. Investment bankers have been trying to get as many dollars out as possible without a proper foundation for it. Regarding the bailout my humble opinion is, that if there is a bailout, there should be conditions which prevent the same thing happening again. Otherwise it is just money thrown away.<br />
My two cents<br />
Ulla</p>
<p>Ulla Hennigs last blog post..<a href="http://ullahennig.wordpress.com/2008/10/03/the-colours-of-autumn/">The Colours of Autumn</a></p>
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		<title>By: Luke Gedeon</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7789</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Gedeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 06:14:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7789</guid>
		<description>Well, Luke it looks like you did it again. Just be quiet for a bit, will ya.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Luke it looks like you did it again. Just be quiet for a bit, will ya.</p>
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		<title>By: Luke Gedeon</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7779</link>
		<dc:creator>Luke Gedeon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 15:54:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7779</guid>
		<description>@Ulla Hennig - The goings on in America have a huge impact on the rest of the world. Your opinion, while not likely to be heard by the politicians (mine is not either :) ), is valuable to us, your friends.

@Brad Shorr - I agree that there are going to be some pain coming from this, but in the end it might be a good thing. Mr. Market has been obese for many years. Now that he has been diagnosed with diabetes, he has motivation to start eating right and losing weight. Unfortunately, healthy food does not taste as good, and I am not sure he will start eating right. In which case, all of this really will be a loss. In the mean-time cheer up and enjoy the lower gas price. :)

@Rick Mahn - Main stream media (MSM) is primarily an entertainment industry. They have to provide entertaining content in order to sell ads which they have to sell to cover the high cost of wide distribution. They cannot afford to do anything but entertain. That is why blogs are so important. Many experts are online explaining how we got into this and how to get out. They are not as easy to find as Channel 5, but they can be found. The most powerful impact of the web is that we have easy access to millions of people who are too smart and too brutally honest to be published or broadcast by the entertainment industry.

@Karen Swim - We have to look a little further back than the airline bailout before deciding that putting more cash in the system will not help. I do agree that the mortgage buyout will other problems in the long run, but money spent in the right places really has helped many times in the past. The trick is to determine the right amount and the right place.

@Laurie Slade - I love the John Muir quote. Thanks for sharing. (MZM, you missed a spelling error in that quote - only mentioned cause it took me a second to figure out what Muir was saying)

@Jean Browman - There have been signs of an impending earthquake for at least 10 years. I thought we were in for it in 2000-2001 and again in 2004. We might end up just delaying it again, but eventually the DJIA needs to get back down to 8,000 or the inflation adjusted equivalent.

@William - Actually they did not seem to be good ideas to &lt;b&gt;everyone&lt;/b&gt; at the time, but alas, the majority is generally wrong. But, cheer up, we still have a long way to go before you have less food on your table than the other 80% of the world population. We are still blessed far beyond what we deserve. A lot of really great things could come out of this, including the possibility of Americans becoming a little more sympathetic.

@Karen Putz - Debt is a very important part of making the economy work. As a matter of fact each dollar bill is a piece of government debt. I think people forget that the only way for the government to pay all of its debt is to remove all the money from the economy. We do need to spend less on consumer items, but need to continue or even increase our spending on things that help us make more money. The crises of the Great Depression is that people were too scared to invest in their own or others businesses and farms. So we need to keep spending we just need to be smart about what we buy.

@Luke Gedeon - Wow, you really killed the conversation. That or you were so late to the party that everyone had already left and so Robert had to restart the conversation on a new post. How 'bout you just be quiet this time so people can enjoy the conversation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Ulla Hennig - The goings on in America have a huge impact on the rest of the world. Your opinion, while not likely to be heard by the politicians (mine is not either <img src='http://middlezonemusings.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> ), is valuable to us, your friends.</p>
<p>@Brad Shorr - I agree that there are going to be some pain coming from this, but in the end it might be a good thing. Mr. Market has been obese for many years. Now that he has been diagnosed with diabetes, he has motivation to start eating right and losing weight. Unfortunately, healthy food does not taste as good, and I am not sure he will start eating right. In which case, all of this really will be a loss. In the mean-time cheer up and enjoy the lower gas price. <img src='http://middlezonemusings.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>@Rick Mahn - Main stream media (MSM) is primarily an entertainment industry. They have to provide entertaining content in order to sell ads which they have to sell to cover the high cost of wide distribution. They cannot afford to do anything but entertain. That is why blogs are so important. Many experts are online explaining how we got into this and how to get out. They are not as easy to find as Channel 5, but they can be found. The most powerful impact of the web is that we have easy access to millions of people who are too smart and too brutally honest to be published or broadcast by the entertainment industry.</p>
<p>@Karen Swim - We have to look a little further back than the airline bailout before deciding that putting more cash in the system will not help. I do agree that the mortgage buyout will other problems in the long run, but money spent in the right places really has helped many times in the past. The trick is to determine the right amount and the right place.</p>
<p>@Laurie Slade - I love the John Muir quote. Thanks for sharing. (MZM, you missed a spelling error in that quote - only mentioned cause it took me a second to figure out what Muir was saying)</p>
<p>@Jean Browman - There have been signs of an impending earthquake for at least 10 years. I thought we were in for it in 2000-2001 and again in 2004. We might end up just delaying it again, but eventually the DJIA needs to get back down to 8,000 or the inflation adjusted equivalent.</p>
<p>@William - Actually they did not seem to be good ideas to <b>everyone</b> at the time, but alas, the majority is generally wrong. But, cheer up, we still have a long way to go before you have less food on your table than the other 80% of the world population. We are still blessed far beyond what we deserve. A lot of really great things could come out of this, including the possibility of Americans becoming a little more sympathetic.</p>
<p>@Karen Putz - Debt is a very important part of making the economy work. As a matter of fact each dollar bill is a piece of government debt. I think people forget that the only way for the government to pay all of its debt is to remove all the money from the economy. We do need to spend less on consumer items, but need to continue or even increase our spending on things that help us make more money. The crises of the Great Depression is that people were too scared to invest in their own or others businesses and farms. So we need to keep spending we just need to be smart about what we buy.</p>
<p>@Luke Gedeon - Wow, you really killed the conversation. That or you were so late to the party that everyone had already left and so Robert had to restart the conversation on a new post. How &#8217;bout you just be quiet this time so people can enjoy the conversation.</p>
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		<title>By: Wilson Pon</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7778</link>
		<dc:creator>Wilson Pon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:43:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7778</guid>
		<description>Well, Robert. One of the reason why I loved to read and comment on your blog is you a very sincere blog owner, which will try your best to communicate with every commentar, as long as they are not the shameless spammers lol

By the way, where did you got the picture, Robert? It seems a little bit familiar to me here...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Robert. One of the reason why I loved to read and comment on your blog is you a very sincere blog owner, which will try your best to communicate with every commentar, as long as they are not the shameless spammers lol</p>
<p>By the way, where did you got the picture, Robert? It seems a little bit familiar to me here&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Brad Shorr</title>
		<link>http://middlezonemusings.com/an-experiment-in-conversation/#comment-7776</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad Shorr</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Oct 2008 13:00:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://middlezonemusings.com/?p=1976#comment-7776</guid>
		<description>Hi Robert, Yes, reading the other comments caused me to change, or at least refine, my opinion.  I think no matter what we do (or don't do), there are going to be serious downsides. I now think no matter what we do (or don't do), we're still going to feel confused, doubtful, and pessimistic. It's going to take a looooooooooong time to unravel this big wad of financial muck. On top of that, the Cubs and the White Sox are getting creamed in the playoffs, so TGIF just doesn't cut it for me today. :)

Brad Shorrs last blog post..&lt;a href="http://www.wordsellinc.com/blog/blogs/a-hat-tip-to-blogs-i-read-in-silence/" rel="nofollow"&gt;A Hat Tip to Blogs I Read in Silence&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Robert, Yes, reading the other comments caused me to change, or at least refine, my opinion.  I think no matter what we do (or don&#8217;t do), there are going to be serious downsides. I now think no matter what we do (or don&#8217;t do), we&#8217;re still going to feel confused, doubtful, and pessimistic. It&#8217;s going to take a looooooooooong time to unravel this big wad of financial muck. On top of that, the Cubs and the White Sox are getting creamed in the playoffs, so TGIF just doesn&#8217;t cut it for me today. <img src='http://middlezonemusings.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
Brad Shorrs last blog post..<a href="http://www.wordsellinc.com/blog/blogs/a-hat-tip-to-blogs-i-read-in-silence/">A Hat Tip to Blogs I Read in Silence</a></p>
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